I mean, the first thing I'd think is they were probably too young to be reading such things lol...tbh, when people say that my first thought is I'm sorry that they probably didn't have better support or education in their lives to help them relate to fiction healthily, and know what makes up healthy relationships irl. It also reflect sadly a failure of the structure around them and adults around them to prevent grooming.

Honestly tho I think it's natural for teens and young ppl to fall in love with and have crushes on older people, and so it makes sense that fantasy-material will often include fulfilment of those fantasies. Idk we'd have to look at statistics to see what's more common to pop up where and in what genre, but I feel like that probably reflects both that fantasy-desire, as well as probably dynamics from real life (especially older works where young women often marry men who serve as more "mentor" figures first). It can be problematic but i would say the trope follows the reality more than vice versa

I FORGOT ABOUT THE CITY HUNTER RANT LMAOOO … I do get what she was saying re: frustration at what becomes known as “mainstream” and critically acclaimed/framed as “for general audiences” when expressing such clearly horny/sexual fantasies, but it is kinda out of place on the general info thread looool. In a later reply i think she talks about enjoying various comic works that have similar Problematic Pervert stuff but are specifically framed as erotic fantasies…

I think that would be similar to you and ur pervert yuriz, where the pervert yuri is being IN the genre where it’s expected. For me, it would be like I enjoy when there is some sexy homophobia and misogyny in my yaoiz and like, series that are very heightened fantasy drama bc it makes situations have a particular intense flavor, but feels jarring to pop up randomly in stories presenting itself as more objective/serious etc. But i feel the line can be blurred a lot tbh…i do think, when it comes to “representation” of any kind, the bad thing about sexist/homophobic/racist etc portrayals is actually kind of a craft issue, where its more like in creating a new thing, why go for the “easiest” most cliche portrayal that reflects the assumptions ppl already have…and if you DO decide to go for the cliche, you’ll make a better work if you have greater awareness of why that cliche exists, and make it more fun and cool than if u worked from ignorance…whether its pervert yuriz or homophobic yaoiz, it becomes much sexier if the ppl making it understand the essence of why it’s transgressive or exists in the first place

Sexuality will always be a force in art and media etc etc, just because it is a fundamental part of human culture and society and experience, regardless of one's specific relationship to sexuality itself. However what is deeply harmful is when in media there ends up being a default, objectifying assumption of what the visual language of sexuality etc MUST Look Like, along with assuming who the default audience MUST be (hence what stuff like Laura Mulvey and John Berger have talked about wrt gaze, male gaze etc).

This thread https://x.com/celineorelse/status/1058145289561882627 is an oldie but goodie, and shares a lot of articles and books, videos (including John Berger, which I mentioned above ) which I think speaks to your concerns. It's long but around this part https://x.com/celineorelse/status/1059022892481032193 it talks about the harmful impact of sexist/sexualized images of women taken for granted in public and society.

I think the important takeaway is that the misogyny isn't being "imparted" necessarily bc of the inherent power of the sexualized images themselves, but the context in which the images are presented, and thus the messages being communicated through that presentation. Are they being treated as "default," are fantasies being /presented/ as an objective desirable reflection of reality? Whose fantasies, demographically, are treated as important and Real and unassailable, natural and whose are degraded and denounced? These are

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I would add my own extra experiential commentary that, as someone who grew up with a LOT of say, Christian material around what women should and shouldn't look/act/be like, obviously pornography and sexy bikini images etc were greatly frowned upon to look at, for men and women. And so my exposure to sexualized women in media was fairly limited as much as one could be in the modern age. However, this culture also granted a fetishistic power to the Sexualized Woman Image(tm) that was both lusted after and despised–the Sexual Woman Image was both a symbol of Weakness of Willpower and Shame for Men (that they must learn to Conquer) and a symbol of Warning for women (that they must not represent, lest you become that Symbol of Weakness and Shame). In thosw cultural context I feel it ended up making the act of seeing a generic sexualized woman image more harmful, and caused more unnecessary guilt and gendered resentment, than it would have been if young men and women had simply been allowed to see stuff casually and learn how to behave themselves and not act up around it.

*Ofc there's the distinction between like Literal Pornography and just like. A woman standing around in a swimsuit or low cut shirt--something that the oversexualizing culture likes to flatten together

I think any “nerd” subculture kind of is susceptible to this kind of thing, INCLUDING comic books and video games, which are infamous for virulent misogyny (gamergate anyone???). Japan being the “number one source of misogyny” feels kind of racistly limiting, it feels a bit like a “fish not noticing the water” situation of the anglosphere not noticing the misogyny of its own nerd communities and fanbases. Not to say that Japanese and East asian stuff DOESN’t have a misogyny problem, just that I think it’s easier to notice when it looks “weird” and exotic compared to the more dreary, mundane offenses from normies in the workplace and the pulpit, etc. That, and in the english-speaking weeb world it goes hand in hand with the goofy Orientalism, where their own fans create a weird idea of what “japan” is in their brain as a kind of Preserved Conservative Utopia that hilariously lines up with their own ideas and taste. Hence on one hand you’ll have an anime chud whining about waifu8729429’s boobs not being drawn big enough because of the Evil Western Influence, while some comic book or star wars nerd will be crying that video game girl #28394 is too MANNISH and breaking the CANON and pandering to the WOKES for having biceps or no makeup or some shit. I think nerd culture and otaku culture in general can perpetuate this because it’s in that weird spot where most “normie” people think it’s weird to be passionate about fictional works, so there’s a (not completely untrue) feeling of persecution and isolation that comes with otaku/nerding out, that can culminate in projecting those feelings into punching down at women, minorities etc while still telling themselves they are being subversive and underdog-like for doing so.

Idk much personally about the 2000s 4chan anime community etc (i’ve seen my share of talk about it from being Online of course) but can’t imagine it’d be great for moderating these kinds of behaviors! It DOES vary though, because I think the media itself isn’t always the source—for example I know lots of queer people who are DEFINITELY not alt-right/conservative who also are fans of many of the same animes/series, even stuff for sexual “male gazey” media things like hentai/eroge/ecchi. I’ve gotten a lot more appreciation of those mediums because of such folks XD. In the end it’s less about the media themselves, and more how it’s framed and how you enage with it, and yourself I think…since there are alt-right fans of anything, even stuff with ostensibly sweet and progressive messages, like MLP and other cartoons about friendship or hanging out etc. I don’t think a single media, by itself, “causes” anyone to become misogynistic on its own as much as it is strongly reinforced by your social group or people one looks up to, whether its ur family, community, friends whose approval u seek, or ppl u have parasocial relationships with (hence young men and figures like Andrew Tate etc).

And I think you are right about how tbh if people are feeling vindictive and disaffected, they will always find some other outlet to be weird about. Currently, I’m not really an anime poster these days, but as someone into Third Crusade and medieval era stuff, and who follows ppl into Classical era stuff, you REALLY need to be on the lookout for nazis and RETVRN/deus vult idiot LARPers, there are lots of accounts that will (re)post pretty pictures and classic illustrations to nab followers while also posting insane fascism takes. Personally I can spot them a mile away by now and don’t have any trouble due to my Shield of Fujo Cringe (and also not being much of a military buff) but I feel for the folks who are much more into military nerd subjects and want to explore that more in-depth without running into the people posting Race Science Gender Essentialism online….RIP

Ooh it's interesting to hear your experience from this side of the Las Loliconettes so to speak. (FTL made me lol tho....faster than light? XD) I def think it's true a lot of the more/Loli female fans I think who are out there tend to want to be more dl for obvious reasons, that makes some sense. I do remember hearing something about a fujo to Loli or vice versa pipeline but I forget which direction it went??

I can see where the discomfort would come from... I can get pretty uncomfortable when I can't tell where the line between someone's posting bit or roleplay/fantasy posting and "real" ideas are, and there are def boundaries for myself I tend to draw when it comes to some things. I know in da "proship" spaces it's not popular to talk about since there's a lot of slander that can easily be thrown about but it's good to be aware (both of slander and of potentially uncomfortable situations.) idk ur person but that does sound kind of concerning just from my end so idk 😶

Thanks for sharing ur experience!! Honestly this feels very common....everyone is different of course, but I think there is a sense of "defensiveness" amongst lesbian/ace fujos when faced with ppl getting nosy about our identities etc to overly emphasize how NOT interesting/etc aspects are to us...when I think really a lot of times it's a very different kind of interest and connection. I think ppl don't realize that art and depictions are about Sexy Concepts as much as they are about People and Genders and I think yaoiz kind of explore a particular set of Sexy Concepts that people will relate to in their own ways that's separate from the way we relate to Real People and Genders irl

(To also be a bit TMI, I will say the football cheering is kind of close what my experience with yaoiz is a lot...like I have a lot of investment and excitement for the arc and experience of the story but I don't feel attracted to it the same way, it's very "distinct" ig from the stuff that does turn me on, but I feel generally less interested in arousal itself jdkdjffj it's more fun to yaoisports....and I have found this odd in how it works...but just goes to show how variable the experiences are)

A big part of this sort of argument— “are we fostering an environment where people are desensitized to [sexualizing children]” is like….we already LIVE in a world where the sexualization and exploitation of children is normalized in many ways. Children are basically owned by their parents and guardians and girls are seen as a kind of sexual property that must be “protected” by external influences, look at any comments under viral tiktoks of teenage or tween girls dancing or having fun or of young teen or child actresses and you’ll see grown adults leaving disgusting comments under the guise of jokes or messing around. In short, already no one really needs to be “tricked” into viewing children as sexual objects or objects to exercise abuse and power over, because sadly there’s a lot that already goes on even in modern society. I do think the concern — “are we putting entertainment and reading/aesthetic pleasure above the well-being of children?” Is something normal to think, because it does apply in a lot of Real Life situations sadly. I dont think this kind of speculation specifically about Drawn Art is particularly helpful, since it’s speculating about hypothetical harms (that as you’ve said, have not been proven) when there are many well documented examples of the kinds of conditions and environments that do lead to abuse. It’s not a mysterious “miasma.” (I talked a bit about this in this ask, though that one was more about misogyny.) https://retrospring.net/@tithetohell/a/113213645376771424

I actually do think that media, the way it’s presented and distributed and framed in the public, can contribute to these assumptions, and it’s not a “fiction Never Affects Reality” thing (that idea is stupid on its own) I think there has been discourse and critique in Japan/East Asia about this but I’m not up to date on the scholarship or current writings. However, that to me is less about content itself and more about the unbalanced power in what is framed as “reality,” which I agree does need to be undertaken with responsibility. I think this is where a lot of the feminist critique comes in, when it comes to “harmful” fantasies and depictions of women—it’s fine to have crazy fantasies, normal even, but overwhelmingly men’s fantasies get treated and presented as Real Normal Facts of Desirability(about women, girls, children, etc) in media, and that’s what is dangerous and frustrating.

I just also think that legal censorship is always more harmful than it is helpful, and especially for purely artistic purely fictional works always ends up harming those who are most vulnerable, and also is just absolutely impossible to enforce in a fair way. There will always be a double standard of who gets to be successful, vs who will get absolutely pilloried for their problematic work.

For my purely personal opinion on most Lolicons I’ve encountered (and blocked) What enrages me about them is (aside from how many of them are rightwingers) the curious way in which they refuse to engage with the fact that this interest is indeed a “deviant” desire, and will basically rewrite entire histories and their narrative of themselves to put themselves at the center, screaming “I’m Normal!! I’m normal!! Everyone ELSE though (the queers and the Wokes) is a DEGENERATE, but I’m NORMAL” and there’s a lack of idk… awareness to have any sort of compassion or solidarity for other freak creators or nerds. And thus, that coldness is duly returned lmao. (Shotacons I tend to personally observe generally overlap with fujos, and thus usually have an awareness of misogyny and homophobia). Not everyone is like this of course, but this is my pattern of observation.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. It took me some time to get through all of this, but I did want to address your thoughts as directly as I could. I’m sorry that haters have made it hard for you to enjoy one of your hobbies, it really is unfortunate that people need to be embarrassed of their interests and kind of act like this.

“Have comments affected you to the point of not wanting to read one manga or another from the same author?”

I’m used to seeing people be incredibly Loud and Wrong about my favorite media, so I suppose I’ve built up a tolerance. For example, one of my favorite manga is Harada’s Nii-Chan (which definitely gets that “Not Like OTHER shota yaoiz” treatment), which I was so shocked by the kinds of comments people were posting in a kind of “did we even read the same story???” That I wrote a blog post to share my thoughts.

I do tend to avoid popular media, not necessarily on purpose but more because I kind of know my interests and my tastes and I don’t really feel like going out of my way to check out something for the sake of popularity unless I am sufficiently convinced, either by friend or fanart or a good review. If said media has a Toxic and annoying fandom, I’m also more likely to ignore it, but it depends like I said if I can get a good word in.

This is a bit easier for me because as you know, I’m a pretty Problematic(tm) artist who likes reading and creating the Evil power difference Rapey tropes and fictions that these guys are sooo afraid of, and it’s laughable to me that they are so hateful and scared of—what? Something that comes out of my pen? That comes easily out of my huge horny brain? I’ve spent the past few years pretty much carving out my own space in terms of my friendships and audience, after kind of separating more from those more anti, “BL-critical” tiresome spaces, and it’s great to be able to feel relaxed online and be able to trust people around me won’t be acting insecure like that.

I empathize with people who have frustrations with finding media that they like that suits their tastes–even for myself, I don’t really like most commercial BL, or movies or books for that matter, or even lots of common/popular “problematic” tropes that circulate a lot. But also I don’t make it everyone’s problem.

Tips for Handling Frustration:

I get annoyed a lot, and I do understand the frustration and urge to argue and fight when faced with inflammatory comments like the ones that you shared. Hell, I used to get some anon sending such inflammatory comments and tweets DIRECTLY to my inbox for several months, saying all sorts of things. It feels bad to hear such insulting things, and of course the human impulse is to want to defend yourself or talk shit back to them. Hell, even when I was writing this, i was on twitter and saw some really annoying comments on a post and got mad about it, but then I decided to do my strategy… of. Taking a breather. Closing the tab, and looking at something else (in fact, I’m supposed to be writing a paper right now haha, I don’t have time for this drama…)

Ultimately, I think it’s good to have perspective. there’s always going to be endless amounts of people commenting saying the most Wack Stuff Ever, on twitter, in yaoi comments, on facebook, in real life. If you try to fight one person, even if you “defeat” them (and what would a “defeat” even look like? Sending a Sick Burn? Them deleting their account? What would feel Victorious?”), there will just be more losers to argue with forever and ever and ever. To me, that’s a real waste of short human life that I could be using to be fujoshing out. It’s different of course, if the person you’re arguing with is a friend or someone you have an actual, real relationship with, but if it’s complete strangers commenting… they’re just randos who are Loud and Wrong and goofy. So if I see it, I guess I just kind of… process it as Social and Cultural data, I guess, and try not to pay attention to it.

I think it’s a natural feeling to want to defend yourself, or defend a piece of media you like from someone being really mean and unfair. But unless it’s something like an accusation directly being aimed at you, I feel like it’s not worth it to engage directly and get your hands dirty there, since the end result won’t be something of value to you. Would you respect these people’s opinions in real life? I respect them as human beings, but even as a fellow human, I’m not obligated to give their thoughts my time. It’s easier said than done to say something like “Just Ignore the Comments”but it really is vital and necessary to mental wellbeing, and if other people’s random opinions are having such an affect on you, it’s a good idea to maybe take a step back for your own mental health.
And I guess it’s necessary not just to ignore such people, but do the opposite—actively seek out people who ARE lovers of works, who are positive. If you find someone writing a good review of a series you like, give them a comment with your thoughts. There’s this therapy concept of defining what you can and what you can’t control … you cannot control what other people’s opinions are, you can’t control what they comment, but you do have control over what you choose to engage with, and you shouldn’t feel bad to STOP reading things that are upsetting to you.

For example, When I had my annoying retrospring anon, they would snd me lots of inflammatory comments and tweets, and for a while I tried to archive them as “proof” to address later or something, but honestly it just made me feel bad, so I deleted them all, and I’ve lived so lightly since.

I would also suggest, if you don’t do it already, finding a creative outlet. It doesn’t have to be drawing or writing fiction, but it can be writing short reviews, making lists of something you like, organizing and categorizing them. Some people I know who get tired of more western-style discourse are motivated to learn Japanese, so they can read manga directly. If you can’t find an analysis of a story that you like, try and write one up of your own—make a blog, or a zine, and share it with others if you feel comfortable with it. I think finding that kind of outlet is important, because it can channel energy into making something that has a definite end or finish point rather than engaging in something that will always be endless, like fighting against the waves. If you invest a certain amount of time into doing something like making a drawing, or making a list/spreadsheet of favorite works, or writing a review, or researching more info about your favorite authors by the end of the time you will have an End Result you can be happy with.

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I do want to address briefly some other comments you made earlier, about moe/bishoujo/girl and erogedepictions—I actually do think like you said that eroge enjoyers are definitely a lot more relaxed and less stressful, but yeah because a work is heterosexual, there’s a lot less pressure for it to “represent” queer experiences or be “fair” etc in the same way, since people already kind of view it as “degeneracy.” I will say there ARE plenty of women who criticize and have criticized hentai and anime/manga sexualization and depiction of women and girls over the years, there is QUITE a lot of discussion and discourse about it from feminist circles, and a lot of condemnation of loli/lolicon otaku culture that has an obsession with feminine characters and cute designs but who make works with misogynist plots or assumptions etc. It’s another side of the discussion, i think. There are even discussions about yuri and how there are women who aren’t as into the moe-style of various yuris, even if the stories themselves are mature.

However, I do think you’re right in that such criticism tends to come more from “outside” the culture, and those who are enthusiastically reading the eroge generally are not dissing it. I think for BL because it is a “dirty” genre, too queer and non-het for mainstream, too “unrealistic” for Good Gay Representation, too feminine and “woman”-tainted for certain Gay Men…it’s a paradox of being highly successful and commercialized, but also constantly disdained or spoken of in terms of embarrassment. However, in a way I think that freak outsider status is what gives it room to be a bit more indulgent in its “embarrassing” aspects more than other genres, which is something I really like about it, even if I find a lot of it Very corny.

Thank you! I’m glad you could get something out of it. Honestly I think it’s a bit of a tricky thing to talk about sometimes, because ofc in life women and children, etc ARE more vulnerable often to various violence and wrongdoing, etc. But the “danger” of the Purity-Maidenhood thing is one that is based in that patriarchal idea too, since I feel like it’s less about Protecting people so much as it is about protecting an Ideal of Purity (which is often foisted upon women and children etc). And in protecting that Ideal of Purity it requires an enforcing of roles and expulsion, etc like I mentioned before.

In general I guess I’ve had a lot of dislike of the trope but also irl concept I guess that Victimhood = Morality. I guess it just feels too easy of a narrative, that you are good BECAUSE something bad happened or could happen to you….This results in a lot of lazy stories I think…where a story wants a character to be seen as “good” so we only see them as the victim of cruel and wrong actions, but they end up having Only Kind and Good, easy to empathize with internal life. Which, there is a truth to that, in that people who endure lots of hardship can become more empathetic and thoughtful because of their perspective. But also I think, most people are susceptible to biases and suspicion and selfishness even with good intentions, and for most people who end up DOING good in their life, it’s something that by necessity is conscious and intentional, and not just innocently bumbling into it bc of Inherent Nature….maybe this is a bit Calvinist of a take based on formative framing hahaa but yeah I just never want to buy into the idea that there is a state of “being” that is inherently “good”

And I think people don’t always want to acknowledge when they do have some sort of power or influence over others that can be abused, even if it’s just a little. IDK it’s all very complicated and interesting to see play out both in how people depict it in fiction and irl, how people construct “goodness” and sympatheticness and all that. I feel this gets talked about a lot in terms of like, VILLAIN REDEMPTION ARCS DISCOURSE and ppl arguing whether or not Fictional Evil Man #30498402 deserves this or that, but I think it could apply just as well to POV characters and how a story treats them.

I feel this was very rambly but yeah glad I could spawn some thoughts…

The self-association with Innocence, purity, and Righteousness is often a way how people can justify uses of force. For example in medieval France (yes yes I know bear with me) power and legitimacy came from the "sacral" and "pure" (Christian) status of the rulership/kingship, and it's association with the virgin Mary and the lily (hence fleur de lis). Of course, whenever there is a praised status of purity, there needs to exist the obverse--the tainted, dangerous, evil, etc. which must be pushed back up on in order to maintain and protect the status of innocence, the way in the ideal gender roles dynamic, the Man(tm) may excuse himself with Extreme Force to protect the Virtue of the Maiden Daughter. In politics, it could often be a smart move to appeal to a status of purity and virtue etc to elicit sympathy for individuals (Philip II's first queen, Isabella of Hainaut, saved herself from the disgrace of divorce by publicly appearing as a barefoot penitent, emphasizing her vulnerability and piousness in a PR move that worked REALLY well), as well as metaphorically for larger institutions (lots of Crusader talk of "Fair Jerusalem/Our Church at risk of being RAVAGED by the infidel" kind of language). Tbh this can be seen in all sorts of ye olde political cartoons, if u want to portray a powerful force as sympathetic and vulnerable boom now it's a beautiful maiden, attractive but not TOO sexy (else that would be too much like a HARLOT)

ANYWAYs that's a large departure from my original sorta jokey context of maiden stuff which was talking about The Batman 2022. One of my OG personal "maiden" definitions is that aside from gender i use it to refer to "A Young and naive Person in a position of servitude/who is under authority or protection". I joke that Bruce Wayne in that movie has a very "Mourning Victorian" vibe to him which is fascinating and a part I liked. Where he is a hulking armor clad bruiser ofc but mentally it seems like he has the POV of a lost kid...He's weirdly naive about a lot of things including the sexy underground, he's defined himself as kind of a victim who is Taking Justified Vengeance, in a way it's like the Batman itself is the knight-defender lashing out on behalf of the Aggrieved Innocence of the Child Bruce, while the Adult Bruce Wayne kind of is maladjusted and listens to what basically any Authoritative Man's Voice tells him throughout the movie lol. A big part of his arc is coming out from under that Authoritative Supervision and having his innocent preconception of the world shattered (oh nooo my father was not 100% a GOOD MAN...I am not as "pure" as I THOUGHT // and then 2 seconds later it's like dw dw about it.) also, I always thought 2022's batsuit looked a little corset-y, like historical shapewear haha. And I thought about how clothing and mourning dress served a social function of the mental state of the wearer, except he's been in his Mourning Dress for years lol. Compare to Selina/Catwoman who is also in a state of servitude, but who Bruce initially considers suspicious or not "pure" according to his worldview until he gets to know her better and can sympathize with her as someone worthy of protection, it feels like a very Upstairs & Downstairs sort of thing going on.

Also to just continue this weird ramble and also going back to my Batman thoughts, I think this sense of Justified Purity/Victimhood can apply to Riddler as well in an interesting way...he blasts Ave Maria, kind of hearkens back to an age of childhood innocence as well (the choirboy stage), associates himself with a kind of divine mission of "defensive" vengeance against the un-innocent I guess....a stretch but as u can see I think Batman22 is kind of a mess so I can project anything I want on it