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⚪️ · 2h
It's pretty obvious why people engage with content the way that they do, you just don't like their answer. Now you're hellbent on forcing them to think about it until they get to the same conclusions you do. And choose to shame people to get to that conclusion. But you refuse to look inward on why you do that. When people are just living their lives, creating content in their free time based on a number of things from fetish to their personal lens to their lived experiences to their trauma.
my brother in christ i am replying to messages sent TO ME with the full knowledge that I would be the person commenting on them and my opinions on the matter have always been perfectly clear, no one was walking into my RS unaware of what the experience would be. people were sharing their experiences more than anything and not a single person has been shamed for it. lots of people chimed in with different opinions so i'm not even alone in whatever it is you see a problem with so you can just remove yourself to a place where others agree with you instead of getting into MY twitter and MY retrospring to be annoyed that i thought a lot about these things and won't step down from my opinions just because someone likes to "just have fun" using real people as a backdrop without consideration for their personhood
⚪️ · 19h
To weight in on the whole stereotyping thing as a chaotic 22-year-old bisexual that lives and breathes switching and has gotten into rpf only recently/ has a background in mostly being in fictional-centric circles with a variety of friends with different preferences :
So to preface, I've always felt alianted within fandom spaces in some sort of way. I'm chronically poly brained (making super petty ship wars absolutely hell to go through) , I've been judged again and again for "liking problematic ships" however, usually the biggest roadblock tends to be the way I approach dynamics— that being that I, on paper, will vouch for versatility always and believe in reversible positions within pairings, with my dynamics outside of that favouring one side being more dominant while the other is more sub-leaning and even that doesn't quite scratch the surface. Really, I tend to treat dynamics within ships as slides with different categories similar to video games with a character creator. And, from a more biased (?) Lens, I have a very subtle top/dom bias agenda (meaning that the character I latch onto the strongest has a high chance of either 1.) Being dom fixed dynamics-wise in my brain 2.) Me really liking, wanting to see them top and being a top apologist. Oh and well, I'm trash for dom!bottoms and sub!tops in particular hahah AND I do happen to like genderbends of the m/f variety (or 'het' if one were to prefer calling it that, I'm personally not super comfortable doing it but that's a me thing only fjfjfj)
So with that said one could say I've? Always been morbidly fascinated with how fandom treats and prefers dynamics, how it's changed, how different cultures shape ones perception and how differently my friends tend to approach it.... Which brings me to m4tz in particular and how, even as a new fledgling especially as fledgling 8iny one of the firsts things to stick out was how devided this particular ship is.
Not my first rodeo, but still fascinating.
Others have already brought up valid points and how and why people have preferences and I'm not here to ever invalidate that but to give insight on why someone like me may feel tempted to turn something into 'het' for example..... It's because to my brain (and a lot of others) it isn't quite that. More than their actual gender I perceive fictional characters (or fictionalized rpf counterparts) more as concepts than anything, concepts to tell stories with and that, more often than not, transcend what gender frames we assign them to and that live in a constant state of fluidity, that are a mosaic of countless experiences and I perceive as storytelling devices.
I actually really like your take on gender expression in regards to both hj and hwx bc I actually agree for the most part :) one of my favorite hwx things to exploit is how he just can perfectly embody both extremes of the gender scale and how he just does it flawlessly and they're both sides of him and it's awesome. Guy gives ME gender envy with whatever he does and i'm cis! (He's such an icon fr)
Anyway it may be surprising to note that I'm—as of now and under the context of hj and hwx in particular— generally more sub!hwx and dom!hj-leaning WITH that said if you were to ask for my specific agenda I'd be tempted to say to Let hwx Top (Especially when he's leaning more into his fem side), with my main reasoning being that?? Well. It's plain and simply hot and goals for me. And I like the variety of it, though that's again my bias speaking here. My other big agenda is Letting Hj be a bit of a mess in the sense that he's not as quite put-togerher as hwx is and needs someone to keep an eye on him in that sense and I also like hwx initiating more openly romantic advances especially with words www
Anyhow this is probably super long and I'm sorry if I'm not making any sense, I just felt like throwing my thoughts out into the void as someone that's still getting adjusted, I hope nothing here comes off as super skeptical or negative. I like opening dialogue and in my humble opinion if there's one thing that fandom kind of needs sometimes it's just to kinda have the general space to sit back in and just. Listen to others without the intention to instantly agree with anything / see where the other is coming from. It's easy to just stick to a bubble sometimes and embrace the comfort zone and while healing, that little bit of curiosity never hurts!
yes, i do prefer calling a ship composed of a man and a woman "het" because that is what it is, and not calling it that gives too much leeway for this queer-safe space to possibly be bastardized by the "norm" in times where fascism, transphobia and homophobia are on the rise. i don't mean to be harsh, but in a way i wonder if the resistance to calling a m/f ship "het" is a cop-out to not have to reflect on the ways that patriarchal values may be projected onto them, to continue to value m/f that comes from mlm rpf as a queer ship just so people don't have to admit to liking het content (which, i would like to highlight, is not something to be ashamed of, but it cannot be treated as equal to queer representation). i know this is the type of opinion that gets people telling me it's not that serious yadda yadda, and i don't know how you grew up, but i grew up being queer and looking queer and being ostracized for being queer and surrounding myself with other queer kids who were often less lucky than me when it comes to familial and societal acceptance, and i think it matters that we really do put thought into these things so every generation can grow up a little luckier. we need to consume things critically, yes even in the silly little smashing dolls together rpf. i think the rise on het content using matz as the dolls to make it, the bastardization of a queer ship, can be a problem, it can make cishet people come into this space for the projection onto this female "character" (this is not a judgement of value as we all project onto them in some capacity) without having to interact with and learn from the queer people who are at the core of nsfw spaces in fandom, who built this space FOR THEMSELVES. if anyone feels less connected to a character if they're a trans woman instead of a cis woman, i need them to be forced to sit there and evaluate WHY that is. if anyone feels less connected to a character if she's a lesbian instead of straight, i want people to be forced to sit there and give it thought
i cannot see how making a het ship out of them can transcend what gender frames we assign them to, i can barely even grasp what this is supposed to mean. not only because of this but especially when the woman of the ship is nearly always being put in a stereotypical position that complies with patriarchal values. again, this to me feels like a cop-out. if they're supposed to live in a state of fluidity then we might as well make them trans people, who have a vast experience with gender roles and norms and presentation, craft it with care so we can dismantle the very barriers you are alleging to not see but which are very much there
this is just me, please read this as solely an opinion, and solely applied to FICTION because i know irl people find some of these things empowering and have their own ways of navigating them and dismantling these notions, as real life is always going to be infinitely more complex than we can convey in fiction, but in fiction i personally avoid the dichotomy of a subversion based on reinforcing certain roles. fem top hwa is great and masc bottom hj is great, but at the same time doesn't this create the thought that they're not actually fluid, and that there are two boxes in which you can put them and not really go outside of it? a big issue i see is that everyone wants to break stereotypes but we're not going outside the boxes, we just think that if we put them into boxes they don't usually go into enough times the boxes will crumble. they will not. they are boxes made of steel, hence why they've retained the shape so well throughout the years
thank you for sharing your thoughts and your experience with this topic!! it genuinely gave me a lot to think about and i hope i have conveyed my thoughts well, but i'm open to hearing other perspectives and argument and also to clarifying in case anything is unclear
⚪️ · 12h
im really glad for the conversation thats being had and i agree with the anons from before about the genderbending stuff- when i entered the fandom last year i skimmed through a lot of fics and enjoyed plenty that mainly focused on bttm sh. but all throughout 2024 we had this... huge wave of fem sh sneaking its way into every corner of the fandom to the point i just started rolling my eyes at every post i came across. theres sh, who enjoys both masc and fem clothing, pushing for a genderless look, and people seem to only be able to focus on making him a woman in his dynamic with hj? to me it felt like a clear message that if you like fem or girly things or arent conventionally masc, then you cant be anything else but a bttm or a woman. seeing someone push for both of them being genderbent into lesbians was extremely rare, and it made me naturally drift away from the dynamic altogether to the point of muting and blocking people who simply even dared to mention femsh or bttmsh. it looks to me like people are choosing to focus entirely on one thing only instead of gazing at the entire picture- if sh is to be their helpless, soft little thing who needs his daddy, then it stands to reason that they look for the member hes closest to who just so happens to be hj and take what they want from him to complete their vision of their dynamic- captain hj, but only his stage persona, the commander, the dom- discarding every other side of him to fit this image they have in their head. its rare to find people who can see multiple sides to them, and it truly sucks that i cant enjoy switch content anymore because this particular dynamic feels incredibly misogynistic to me. we can all enjoy bttm sh without reducing him to harmful gender stereotypes, but its been so normalized that speaking up against it would get you stoned (like that kai person, or you and others who spoke up in the past). but i suppose theres just cultural differences at play and westeners prefer their bottoms to be fem. even ridiculing sh's masc side truly makes me question... do you even like sh? if you cannot appreciate every side of him and only take what you want from him instead of accepting him wholeheartedly..... but i digress. heres to a 2025 without harmful stereotypes we should have left behind a long time ago
if people are only gonna read 1 RS out of this entire debate i really hope it's this one. i have nothing to add, you're extremely eloquent and captured my thoughts so well. thank you so much for sending this!!
ps.: i thought of something to add which is, i think people who enjoy femsh don't realize how pervasive it was in the fandom and how, no matter how much you block, mute people and words, it's impossible to not see it. for example, i'm not super into some parts of a/b/o which i have muted, and it shows up on my tl by mistake perhaps once every two months. i can totally cope with that. but it's really hard to not talk about something that bothers you when it's impossible to escape from it, because the only hope is to get people to see that they could be doing something (either tagging or being more thoughtful in their portrayals) to make the space more comfortable for everyone (including themselves)
⚪️ · 8h
“if your biggest source of entertainment and largest chunk of your reading is "not that serious" then what is?” oh you hit the nail on the head with that one. your answers are worded so well and im glad someone so well articulated is opening these discussions, i feel like ur taking the thoughts right out of my brain. (if it matters, this is coming from a closeted demigirl who very much prefers indulging in mostly bttmhj content😭)
⚪️ · 9h
I'm a different anon and i'm 100% agree with all the opinion here, especially the styling, make up, etc because not only they tried to push a certain 'roles' on members, they also just give up(?) because the make up and styling was so ass and repeating like BORING, LAZY, NOT INSPIRING like come on can we see something different??? And the mistreatment too because some members can't have pretty outfit like damn we want to see something newwwwww.
This is just a tip of the iceberg. I have a lot i want to say but i will just keep my mouth shut and just agreeing with the anon.
it's SO boring and lazy and for make up i don't really know, but for clothes IT'S SO FUCKING CHEAP most of the time when they're wearing things that are custom made 😣 the stylist is so untalented and uninspired. like for fever pt2 she basically ripped off a louis vuitton collection (the group looks for the garden shoot, when hj was wearing the blue jumpsuit) and didn't even put her own spin on it and this basically sums up her MO for everything
i'm always here to listen to yaps against their styling team so feel very free 🫡
⚪️ · 1d
Well, actually? I'm not sure yet if fem mctz are my very main preference bc that takes you out a bit if irl matz which that they said at least, identify as males, and I stanned them knowing that(either way their gender was not the reason I did lol but well) and I like fiction close to reality presented too so there is that. Tho minimum is still one of faves! Specifically talking about fem mctz art rather than fics maybe?
But for sure I can say my prerence is them looking and acting in any feminine way!☝️
⚪️ · 1d
Ik you understood me and I think I made it clear with the rest of my message but I could have worded better the first half and maybe some ppl misunderstood reading only that, but with make it lesbian instead I didn't meant only that nor disregarding usual mlm mctz nor trans masc Hj or Sh! I know they are very important too I was just voicing my wish of seeing more as well of my main preference that's sapphic mctz +fem girl Hj as well🥺🙏
Ah and with a lot of us or majority liking women I meant the nsfw side mctz shippers!
⚪️ · 1d
i feel like people also feel comfortable "joking" abt hwc's masculinity bc they see it as a predominantly "stage" thing? so therefore, to them it's just a performance and he "isn't actually like that". it's odd bc not only is that not true, but like you pointed out a few days ago, hcngjccng is also different off-stage 😭 "oh hwc is different off-stage so that's what i'll reference when i write him. omg look at hcngjccng here, isn't he so dom [video of him on stage]" it just cracks me up sometimes
⚪️ · 1d
hii i've been reading your RSs and they are really insightful, i love seeing people expressing their opinions about the top/btm position… for me i thought i was heterosexual before, but i started to realize that i like girls as well after reading and writing about fem sj fics
also for those who said asain fans likes feminine top more, sadly the taste of preference is not for majority, ppl still views the feminine ones as btm more, just as english-speaking fans
but don't you think that let alone the styling and their stage personalities, sh tends to show his masc side more when he's out of the stage (he likes to show off his arm muscle that's for sureee) and hj are the soft and cute one in his daily post, that's one of the reasons i stick to top!sh and btm!hj dynamic
it's lovely to hear writing fem mctz helped you realize that!!
yesss i tend to favor what they show offstage to build their characters because on stage they're, well, characters (ofc there's the whole discussion of persona that they never put down entirely in front of cameras BUT it's definitely closer to their day to day selves than the one that barks on stage and slashes krakens)
⚪️ · 1d
Hi, a different anon here. Thank you for the interesting discussion to read.
I’m a hj biased fem bi and he’s my bias exactly because I associate myself with him.
I think we have quite similar personalities and he’s a great source of inspiration for me in different areas (starting from fashion (I literally bought a few half-skirts bc of him, I hadn’t thought about such a combination until saw it on him; it was also a moment I realised that I did enjoy some more masc looks on me as well) and finishing with some work-related stuff). And yes, I can be a cute babygirl, so does hj, at the same time, I can be really assertive whether it is needed, so does hj.
And yeah, I’m mostly btm hj enthusiast. I’m also cool with top hj but ONLY if he’s not OOC.
I just do not understand how a lot of people do not see those both sides of hj. Similar to hwa… They BOTH speak about genderless fashion and yet they have been assigned to some strict specific roles in a lot of cases…
⚪️ · 1d
Yep yep nodding to that anon, first two years it was zero t0phj and everyone loved and wrote bttmhj with topsh and now everyone acts crazy if u think he’s an alpha and hj an omega or that u PREFER bttmhj. It’s very telling they always thought femenine one equals bottom which is stupid. And it’s also why i cant stand how they oversexualize every sh live calling him a slutty bottom sub omega pregnant blablabla when he’s just laying down or sighing. Lile i get its NSFVV twt so theyll sexualize them but even on sfw ive seen people do this…
⚪️ · 2d
Btw I so agree with the other anon that they could genderbend both to make it lesbian instead. This is a thought I always had and frustrated me bc, a lot of us, maybe majority of us, like women!! So why not make it even better making them both fem as well?? Also more feminine girl Jccng as well pls :') But I think ppl are starting to thanks to some popular art accs so I'm happy :) In general I hope to see more variety of fans that make a lot different dynamics and characters instead of majority being fixed things so we all can be more happy as a fandom lol And more ppl joining to create the content they want to see themselves! :) Let's hope for a 2025 like that💖
there are definitely more artists popping up with fun and fresh visions of seongjoong which is so wonderful to see 🥺 by the second half of last year i'm really seeing more variety popping up though we're still far from balance (and will probably not reach it, but that's fine!). surely the trend will continue for 2025! 💕💕
⚪️ · 2d
I'm not super sure that majority are this or that but aside that topic I think one of the main reasons ppl, regardless their gender, gender expression and orientation like bttmHj or bttmSh(tho this applies to everyone) is definitely their feminity, either look wise or behaving.
Specially look wise!! Bc I remember on predebut era and all treasure series, Hj is the one who was the fem looking and Sh the masc and I swear this is true bc I was there! xD, but the biiiiig majority dynamic was Sh was top and Hj bttm!! Like it was natural and top Hj was super rare! Even on the older fics, their roles weren't even tagged bc it was the norm😂
And then Sh was the one who started looking even more fem than Hj(and Hj more masc when he cut his hair and matched it with more outfits making him look more masc(specially since the stylist started to give him clothes bigger than him, shoulder pads and that armband stablishing his captain image more, plus the haircuts, and he sadly wore less make up and jewelry, completely opposite to Sh, overall making him look way more fem) And I blame the company and fans for reinforcing and pressuring them to those roles only, specially Hj that btw all the outfits and styles he himself said were his favorites were fem ones! But ofc they have to match their stage persona and mom dad role of the group🙄
Anyways back to the topic yeah I think that's what happens always, whatever look someone sees them, if they match their preferences they bias that member. Also the fans, including compilations and guides, influence a lot new fans to one preference, if the current main one is bbtmSh topHj, they are going to follow it, and majority too are going to bias to matched their preferences based on what they see they are commonly portrayed or the ones they see popular with their community/users they follow and then is hard to change your preference just like it's usually hard to change your first main bias bc you are used to it and sometimes you feel you need to be loyal to that person/perception/dynamic/matching your friends or public preferences :]
Btw! Here another sapphic Hj ult where he also helped me majorly to notice!(I would even describe it as Hj being my sapphic awakening and lesbian crush when I stanned in HclaHcla era lmao) <3
you are so correct about he styling thing, it was really eye-opening to me, especially because from wonderland to answer they changed stylists to the current one and i remember that she tried doing a smooth transition (answer still followed the same pattern the previous one had set, to me) and then in inception it starts disconnecting and TO ME PERSONALLY THIS IS MY OWN OPINION AS A FASHION ENTHUSIAST AND RESEARCHER it was all downhill from there and i rarely see their styling as being particularly groundbreaking or interesting (specifically as a cohesive group), and now that you mention it i can clearly see how this new stylist decided to lead hongjoong down a masc road (their styling and their own personal influence on it is a huge topic with a lot of uncertainty and nuance so i won't elaborate much on it)
but yes, i remember when i joined the fandom and ventured down ao3 it seemed unanimous that everyone saw hongjoong as the bottom and the clearest shift was deja vu and then pink hair on seonghwa which was so immense that when i joined nsfw twitter, unaware that these strict dynamic views were even a thing, i was for a long time under the impression that there were about literally like three bttmhj enthusiasts and it started growing from there save from the times when a chunk of them was getting bullied off twitter
there's also a lot of confirmation biasing where people will assign a certain role then watch their content and keep taking from it only the parts that confirm what they want to believe in about their personalities, which is why so many people on here have the crazy claim that their personalities are subjective (they are literally not). there were a few times when i showed friends certain clips of ateez and pointed out a way some member acted or reacted that kinda showed them in a different light from the usual and saw them have an "oh" moment (not saying that i can see the truth in absolutes or anything, but the fun part of rpf to me is observing and sticking to what i can abstract from their real life "counterparts")
your whole RS was very insightful to me and i appreciate you sharing your thoughts very much!!
SAPPHICS FOR HONGJOONG 💪
if you ever feel like sharing i'd love to hear your story of hj being your sapphic awakening 🥰 the way these kpop boys can influence our understanding of ourselves is sooo interesting to me
⚪️ · 2d
hi i'm the original anon, thank you for the detailed answer and for sharing your experience with gender and masculinity, as a cis person this was very insightful to read!
of course i don't think what i described applies to all bttm sh/ bttm hj stans, i just got curious because those were noticably big groups i saw.
and also my point of view is someone consuming like 90% bttm sh and 10% bttm hj content, so that definitely limits my perception. that's one of the reasons i thought it would be interesting to hear someone's opinion who has different preferences than me:)
your theories align a lot with what i was thinking.
i also view hj and sh as both somewhat androgynous but in super different ways. with hj in the way that he doesn't really present either very fem or very masc, he's just kind of hj. and sh wanting to be seen as feminine sometimes and masculine other times. he also has some interests and tastes that are considered more feminine (perfume, the cleaning, animal crossing etc.) but i think some people fall too into stereotyping with these, because liking those doesn't make anyone not a man. and i really dislike it when people use sh's more feminine traits and run with them to make the ship heteronormative...
i also keep seeing that most like their fave to bottom, i certainly do. and it honestly took a while and developing some awareness of how actual gay couples do things to enjoy versatility
you're right on why feminization esp with sh is so popular imo. i'm a cis woman and I was very much one of the "not like the other girls" type that rejected anything feminine and only learned to reconnect with it as i became an adult. growing up a man liking feminine things or wearing feminine clothes was always a degrading joke, so seeing a man put on a dress or do his makeup and feel confident and happy with it is a wonderful feeling. men presenting masc is not as interesting to me personally as it's not something i resonate with or am very attracted to. i don't think it's less than though, it's just as valid! and sh's ability to switch between different expressions makes him super fascinating to me
a lot of it i think is unfortunately a numbers thing, masc nb people are a minority so their exploration of gender definitely gets kinda lost in the sea of everyone else's. and that really sucks i agree, this should absolutely be a place for all kinds of queer people and it's sad some voices get more drowned out than others
maybe this sounds silly but i'm flattered you sent that rs now knowing about your preferences and i think it spawned an enriching conversation 💕
i'm always curious to hear what cis women or fem aligned people feel and how they related to seonghwa's feminine side but haven't found the right place or way to ask
there's a really big conversation regarding stereotyping to be had, and i'm not sure i have the brain to articulate it right now, but can be summed up by "using seonghwa's tastes to box him into being feminine, submissive or a bottom is harmful to everyone but especially afabs and fems by reinforcing these outdated views". we need to not pretend like fanfiction would have 0 impact on our perception of the world and our values. if your biggest source of entertainment and largest chunk of your reading is "not that serious" then what is?
thank you so much for sharing your experience and insights as well!!
⚪️ · 2d
i remember seeing ppl say "if you see some queer couples as heteronormative idk maybe that's a YOU issue" and i was like ??? mate i don't think that's how it works LMFAO
i was mauling this over in my head yesterday and here's the conclusion i came to:
YES, the claim that queer couples can't be heteronormative makes sense!! but that applies to REAL LIFE couples, just like real people can't queerbait
in fiction, where so much of what we do is projecting, and we can project harmful stereotypes and can literally bend the characters any which way (including..bending a mlm ship into a cishet couple) that is simply not true
it's so easy to say "if you have a problem with this that's a YOU problem 💕" like ok? give me the arguments please?