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⚪️ · 14d
it's that i have a crush on your brain bc i don't know you personally, only through your amazing writing >.<
⚪️ · 14d
i think the moment i realized i was fuuully a bttm hj stan was when i kept reading "hj has a big dick" in every fic and i just . sorry but the only big thing he has is a juicy ass...
⚪️ · 14d
u say its not what bttm hj stans do but then post butch hwa and femme hj which is exactly what bttm hwx stans do so how is it different ? I feel like bttm hj stans have more superiority complex when u do the sameee stuff of feminizing hj🤷🤷 at least hwx is as femenine irl as in fics and fanarts. hj is always masc and dom i fear u guys cant accept hwx is the groups princess.
⚪️ · 15d
chrysanthemum is one of my favorite fics ever, i love your writing so much and i have a huge intellectual crush on you
⚪️ · 18d
don't u think both sides do the same like wanting the bottom to be mommyfied and the wife? i feel like all fandoms do this with mlm ships. ofc hwx gets it way more but even bttm jccngers do it imo idk. like subverting roles etc it's always top being masc. why not have hwx be the mommy milf but still a top or hj the masc one and still bottom? even tho he's femenine i think hwx is more femenine out of them which is why people tend to bottomfy him but yeah.
⚪️ · 1mo
For me (the cis fem girl with the Jccng sapphic awakening and crush), I also like bbtm Jccng and he is my ult but I do not self insert on him, it's more like: I think he is a bttm+ I'm attracted to him and I would love him to get lovingly fcked bc I would fck him too :) <3 From what I saw maybe that's what majority of nsfw mctz shippers think too when they think of one of them as the bttm but not sure
Tho also I actually don't self insert that much always with whoever is topping him either bc I don't find the need I'm just very happy when Hj is loved <3 Tho maybe me also being ace spectrum (probably demisexual+grayace and sex positive but sometimes a bit repulsed+prefering to see unconventional+kink) and the fact of prefering girls influences that a little too. Maybe there are more reasons but not completely sure I see them or know how to explain. But yeah ig that's the main ones. It doesn't matter but just sharing lol and hope I wasn't too tmi!
Ah also! About sharing how was my Jccng sapphic awakening if you don't mind maybe tmi and rambling, going off topic and writing too much (I would try not but can't promise lol) I can share it one day when I'm not distracted and have time and energy yes! :)
And thank you for having this space, listening and having interesting convos, and being so nice☺️💖
the "putting yourself in the place of X" is a bit nebulous to me! i don't know how it works from person to person. i think in fiction just imagining the moment as if you were a spectator is what happens for me without having to put myself in the place of either
and just sharing my own experience, but this is extremely varied from person to person, but i'm a lesbian but i'm not very drawn to wlw content. it's very interesting to see how each person interacts with these topics
feel free to share btw!! i'd love to read it if you ever do send 🥰
thank you for chiming in and sharing your experiences! 💕💕
⚪️ · 1mo
hilarious how u had interesting discussions and just yesterday they were shitting on top hwx and making fun of people and saying oh just bc he's tall he doesn't top he's a princess bottom whiny omega. and it's like . huh? so u only think short people top and femenine people bottom??? lol.
you know what i was thinking about yesterday that is absolutely hilarious to me as well? a couple years ago when bttmhj accounts were being bullied off the app every other week (it sounds like an exaggeration. it is not) the people with thousands of followers who were directing hate to 80~100-follower accounts kept saying that "if bttmsh people were saying stupid shit we'd get them as well" and like it's amazing it just never happens!! it's almost as if they have a bias or something!! absolutely amazing. who would have thought haha
⚪️ · 1mo
(same as last lol) (sorry if this was covered already or not related, ive been largely offline the last 3 days and realize the conversation had evolved much further than the initial take 4 days ago)
⚪️ · 1mo
tennie the posts from a few days back really got me thinking about my own personal biases and my relationship to myself along with what i impress upon the little caricatures i ship. ill out that im transmasc and that it’s a feature i often impress onto hj for a multitude of reasons both in similarities with gender expression that he and i share and also my own personal desires to see him put in a situation. but im 100% sh biased and prefer bttmhj. the more i mull it over, the longer i move away from the thought of “fans want their faves to bottom” and more towards “shippers impress their interests onto both parties”. to me it’s less about self inserting and more about breaking apart the self and pushing those parts against each other.
that's an excellent point and i find it to be true for myself as well!! one of the things that draws me to secnghwc is his masc side and although i'm hj biased they're both important to me and exploring their, as you put it, caricatures in fiction has helped me work out things about myself and both of them were part of the process, topping or bottoming or domming or subbing
i still think there is a chunk of people who possibly uses their fave as y/n placeholder and at times it also seems as if the top can be just about anyone so the picture they paint of them is less important. there's another thing i've been thinking about which is, i wonder if the resistance that some people have to seeing their assigned top as a bottom could come from reinforcement of patriarchal values of masculinity where Of Course the man that carries masculine qualities they desire couldn't possibly [insert "emasculating" value such as "have a small dick"] because why would they be attracted to a man who is Less Man? like a couple weeks ago a friend made a tweet that was obviously a joke about hj having a small dick and someone slid into the replies with pictures to say he was well endowed but it was so besides the point and irrelevant to the joke, and i've seen this type of behavior be true very often (none of this is exclusive to any group of fans)
⚪️ · 1mo
i wanna be as eloquent as ten when i grow up (im in my mid 20s)
⚪️ · 1mo
This is very short, but I just always keep forgetting seonghwa is a criminal in your fic 😭
⚪️ · 1mo
It's pretty obvious why people engage with content the way that they do, you just don't like their answer. Now you're hellbent on forcing them to think about it until they get to the same conclusions you do. And choose to shame people to get to that conclusion. But you refuse to look inward on why you do that. When people are just living their lives, creating content in their free time based on a number of things from fetish to their personal lens to their lived experiences to their trauma.
my brother in christ i am replying to messages sent TO ME with the full knowledge that I would be the person commenting on them and my opinions on the matter have always been perfectly clear, no one was walking into my RS unaware of what the experience would be. people were sharing their experiences more than anything and not a single person has been shamed for it. lots of people chimed in with different opinions so i'm not even alone in whatever it is you see a problem with so you can just remove yourself to a place where others agree with you instead of getting into MY twitter and MY retrospring to be annoyed that i thought a lot about these things and won't step down from my opinions just because someone likes to "just have fun" using real people as a backdrop without consideration for their personhood
⚪️ · 1mo
To weight in on the whole stereotyping thing as a chaotic 22-year-old bisexual that lives and breathes switching and has gotten into rpf only recently/ has a background in mostly being in fictional-centric circles with a variety of friends with different preferences :
So to preface, I've always felt alianted within fandom spaces in some sort of way. I'm chronically poly brained (making super petty ship wars absolutely hell to go through) , I've been judged again and again for "liking problematic ships" however, usually the biggest roadblock tends to be the way I approach dynamics— that being that I, on paper, will vouch for versatility always and believe in reversible positions within pairings, with my dynamics outside of that favouring one side being more dominant while the other is more sub-leaning and even that doesn't quite scratch the surface. Really, I tend to treat dynamics within ships as slides with different categories similar to video games with a character creator. And, from a more biased (?) Lens, I have a very subtle top/dom bias agenda (meaning that the character I latch onto the strongest has a high chance of either 1.) Being dom fixed dynamics-wise in my brain 2.) Me really liking, wanting to see them top and being a top apologist. Oh and well, I'm trash for dom!bottoms and sub!tops in particular hahah AND I do happen to like genderbends of the m/f variety (or 'het' if one were to prefer calling it that, I'm personally not super comfortable doing it but that's a me thing only fjfjfj)
So with that said one could say I've? Always been morbidly fascinated with how fandom treats and prefers dynamics, how it's changed, how different cultures shape ones perception and how differently my friends tend to approach it.... Which brings me to m4tz in particular and how, even as a new fledgling especially as fledgling 8iny one of the firsts things to stick out was how devided this particular ship is.
Not my first rodeo, but still fascinating.
Others have already brought up valid points and how and why people have preferences and I'm not here to ever invalidate that but to give insight on why someone like me may feel tempted to turn something into 'het' for example..... It's because to my brain (and a lot of others) it isn't quite that. More than their actual gender I perceive fictional characters (or fictionalized rpf counterparts) more as concepts than anything, concepts to tell stories with and that, more often than not, transcend what gender frames we assign them to and that live in a constant state of fluidity, that are a mosaic of countless experiences and I perceive as storytelling devices.
I actually really like your take on gender expression in regards to both hj and hwx bc I actually agree for the most part :) one of my favorite hwx things to exploit is how he just can perfectly embody both extremes of the gender scale and how he just does it flawlessly and they're both sides of him and it's awesome. Guy gives ME gender envy with whatever he does and i'm cis! (He's such an icon fr)
Anyway it may be surprising to note that I'm—as of now and under the context of hj and hwx in particular— generally more sub!hwx and dom!hj-leaning WITH that said if you were to ask for my specific agenda I'd be tempted to say to Let hwx Top (Especially when he's leaning more into his fem side), with my main reasoning being that?? Well. It's plain and simply hot and goals for me. And I like the variety of it, though that's again my bias speaking here. My other big agenda is Letting Hj be a bit of a mess in the sense that he's not as quite put-togerher as hwx is and needs someone to keep an eye on him in that sense and I also like hwx initiating more openly romantic advances especially with words www
Anyhow this is probably super long and I'm sorry if I'm not making any sense, I just felt like throwing my thoughts out into the void as someone that's still getting adjusted, I hope nothing here comes off as super skeptical or negative. I like opening dialogue and in my humble opinion if there's one thing that fandom kind of needs sometimes it's just to kinda have the general space to sit back in and just. Listen to others without the intention to instantly agree with anything / see where the other is coming from. It's easy to just stick to a bubble sometimes and embrace the comfort zone and while healing, that little bit of curiosity never hurts!
yes, i do prefer calling a ship composed of a man and a woman "het" because that is what it is, and not calling it that gives too much leeway for this queer-safe space to possibly be bastardized by the "norm" in times where fascism, transphobia and homophobia are on the rise. i don't mean to be harsh, but in a way i wonder if the resistance to calling a m/f ship "het" is a cop-out to not have to reflect on the ways that patriarchal values may be projected onto them, to continue to value m/f that comes from mlm rpf as a queer ship just so people don't have to admit to liking het content (which, i would like to highlight, is not something to be ashamed of, but it cannot be treated as equal to queer representation). i know this is the type of opinion that gets people telling me it's not that serious yadda yadda, and i don't know how you grew up, but i grew up being queer and looking queer and being ostracized for being queer and surrounding myself with other queer kids who were often less lucky than me when it comes to familial and societal acceptance, and i think it matters that we really do put thought into these things so every generation can grow up a little luckier. we need to consume things critically, yes even in the silly little smashing dolls together rpf. i think the rise on het content using matz as the dolls to make it, the bastardization of a queer ship, can be a problem, it can make cishet people come into this space for the projection onto this female "character" (this is not a judgement of value as we all project onto them in some capacity) without having to interact with and learn from the queer people who are at the core of nsfw spaces in fandom, who built this space FOR THEMSELVES. if anyone feels less connected to a character if they're a trans woman instead of a cis woman, i need them to be forced to sit there and evaluate WHY that is. if anyone feels less connected to a character if she's a lesbian instead of straight, i want people to be forced to sit there and give it thought
i cannot see how making a het ship out of them can transcend what gender frames we assign them to, i can barely even grasp what this is supposed to mean. not only because of this but especially when the woman of the ship is nearly always being put in a stereotypical position that complies with patriarchal values. again, this to me feels like a cop-out. if they're supposed to live in a state of fluidity then we might as well make them trans people, who have a vast experience with gender roles and norms and presentation, craft it with care so we can dismantle the very barriers you are alleging to not see but which are very much there
this is just me, please read this as solely an opinion, and solely applied to FICTION because i know irl people find some of these things empowering and have their own ways of navigating them and dismantling these notions, as real life is always going to be infinitely more complex than we can convey in fiction, but in fiction i personally avoid the dichotomy of a subversion based on reinforcing certain roles. fem top hwa is great and masc bottom hj is great, but at the same time doesn't this create the thought that they're not actually fluid, and that there are two boxes in which you can put them and not really go outside of it? a big issue i see is that everyone wants to break stereotypes but we're not going outside the boxes, we just think that if we put them into boxes they don't usually go into enough times the boxes will crumble. they will not. they are boxes made of steel, hence why they've retained the shape so well throughout the years
thank you for sharing your thoughts and your experience with this topic!! it genuinely gave me a lot to think about and i hope i have conveyed my thoughts well, but i'm open to hearing other perspectives and argument and also to clarifying in case anything is unclear
⚪️ · 1mo
im really glad for the conversation thats being had and i agree with the anons from before about the genderbending stuff- when i entered the fandom last year i skimmed through a lot of fics and enjoyed plenty that mainly focused on bttm sh. but all throughout 2024 we had this... huge wave of fem sh sneaking its way into every corner of the fandom to the point i just started rolling my eyes at every post i came across. theres sh, who enjoys both masc and fem clothing, pushing for a genderless look, and people seem to only be able to focus on making him a woman in his dynamic with hj? to me it felt like a clear message that if you like fem or girly things or arent conventionally masc, then you cant be anything else but a bttm or a woman. seeing someone push for both of them being genderbent into lesbians was extremely rare, and it made me naturally drift away from the dynamic altogether to the point of muting and blocking people who simply even dared to mention femsh or bttmsh. it looks to me like people are choosing to focus entirely on one thing only instead of gazing at the entire picture- if sh is to be their helpless, soft little thing who needs his daddy, then it stands to reason that they look for the member hes closest to who just so happens to be hj and take what they want from him to complete their vision of their dynamic- captain hj, but only his stage persona, the commander, the dom- discarding every other side of him to fit this image they have in their head. its rare to find people who can see multiple sides to them, and it truly sucks that i cant enjoy switch content anymore because this particular dynamic feels incredibly misogynistic to me. we can all enjoy bttm sh without reducing him to harmful gender stereotypes, but its been so normalized that speaking up against it would get you stoned (like that kai person, or you and others who spoke up in the past). but i suppose theres just cultural differences at play and westeners prefer their bottoms to be fem. even ridiculing sh's masc side truly makes me question... do you even like sh? if you cannot appreciate every side of him and only take what you want from him instead of accepting him wholeheartedly..... but i digress. heres to a 2025 without harmful stereotypes we should have left behind a long time ago
if people are only gonna read 1 RS out of this entire debate i really hope it's this one. i have nothing to add, you're extremely eloquent and captured my thoughts so well. thank you so much for sending this!!
ps.: i thought of something to add which is, i think people who enjoy femsh don't realize how pervasive it was in the fandom and how, no matter how much you block, mute people and words, it's impossible to not see it. for example, i'm not super into some parts of a/b/o which i have muted, and it shows up on my tl by mistake perhaps once every two months. i can totally cope with that. but it's really hard to not talk about something that bothers you when it's impossible to escape from it, because the only hope is to get people to see that they could be doing something (either tagging or being more thoughtful in their portrayals) to make the space more comfortable for everyone (including themselves)
⚪️ · 1mo
“if your biggest source of entertainment and largest chunk of your reading is "not that serious" then what is?” oh you hit the nail on the head with that one. your answers are worded so well and im glad someone so well articulated is opening these discussions, i feel like ur taking the thoughts right out of my brain. (if it matters, this is coming from a closeted demigirl who very much prefers indulging in mostly bttmhj content😭)